Mastering the Dance of Time: Embracing Finitude
Does the relentless ticking of the clock leave you feeling overwhelmed, as if you’re constantly battling against time? Have you ever considered how understanding the concept of ‘finitude’ could revolutionize your approach to life? Jennifer Deane is a professionally certified coach, consultant, and facilitator, and has over two decades of experience in the healthcare industry. She’s the creator of successful online leadership programs like Leaderstamp and Managing People & Teams, and is passionate about helping organizations promote leaders from within.
In this episode, we explore the complex relationship we all share with time, focusing on the concept of finitude, or the state of having limits or bounds. Jennifer and I spent two years researching different approaches to time management within healthcare, using a Human Systems Dynamics framework called adaptive action. We observed a pervasive sense of overwhelm among leaders, which led us to a deeper understanding of how we choose to spend our time. Join us as we unravel these findings and share insights on navigating the limited time we’ve been given in life.
And as with everything I share on the podcast, this is what I believe based on what I’ve read and researched. But please don’t take my word for it. Keep what sticks, discard the rest and for goodness sakes, go out and test drive it!
What You’ll Learn In Today’s Episode:
Uncovering Jennifer’s career motivations.
The feasibility of time management.
Jennifer’s personal approach to managing time.
The role of a partner in mastering time management.
The interplay between boundaries and time management.
The crucial role of personal discipline in collaborative efforts.
The journey towards embracing discipline.
The debate: embracing or rejecting bucket lists.
What Was Mentioned:
Ideas Worth Sharing:
“Time is one of the only resources that I see as having limits.” – Jennifer Deane
“My highest value is freedom.” – Jennifer Deane
“Managing time doesn’t just require skill, it requires discipline.” – Jennifer Deane
“It’s really in the reflection that you can control your time in general.” – Jennifer Deane
“Motivation is what actually creates discipline.” – Jennifer Deane
“You can do anything if you have true empathy and if you care.” – Jennifer Deane
“Long-term planning is just a fairytale.” – Jennifer Deane
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Speaker 1 0:01
Hi, it's Christina. Thanks for joining us. And welcome to the Squeeze.
Speaker 2 0:11
My highest value is freedom. It's not autonomy, it's actually like untethered freedom. So
Speaker 1 0:28
today on the show I'm speaking with Jennifer Dean. Jennifer is a professionally certified coach, consultant, and facilitator, and I've known Jen for about 10 years since we first connected professionally inside healthcare. Since that time we've collaborated on numerous projects, and we've set up what kind of amounts to our little admiration, mutual admiration society as comrades in our quest for balance. Jen is the creator and designer of some pretty successful online leadership programs, namely Leaders Stamp and managing people and teams that both target new and emerging leaders. She seems to get a kick out of helping organizations figure out how do you promote leaders from within, which I think we can all agree is a pretty smart thing to do right now, given the zany job market, and she's also created another program called Promote Ability. Jen has lots of experience in my industry over 20 years, like me, and like me, she's been perpetually interested in the entrepreneurial angle of how to best deliver something like leadership coaching and development, and what I've long admired about Jen is how well she pivots and adapts her business model to respond to environmental trends, but even more importantly, How she follows her own bliss and zest and interest, seemingly unafraid to change direction and move away from something that to all intents and purposes was objectively successful, and that is mostly why I wanted to invite Jen to speak to me today, so we can try to elucidate further on the complex dance that everyone does with time, what it means to arrange and organize the limited time that we have been given in this life. Now, not long ago, I dropped a podcast episode specifically on time management, and Jen told me that after listening to it, one of the central ideas from the podcast really sparked something for her. It was the concept of finitude, or the state of having limits or bounds. What you need to understand is just how seriously Jen and I took the idea of managing time. We actually spent two years working together on a research project into our different approaches to time management and our relationship to our calendars using a human systems dynamics framework called adaptive action. We explain, we examine, sorry, the culture of time management issues inside healthcare, noting that there was an abundance of overwhelm that we were continually being confronted with in the leaders that we were supporting with coaching. Ultimately, I think it was the culture of overwhelm that led us both to leave healthcare and consult from the outside in. And through our research project, I think it's safe to say that we both discovered a deeper appreciation for how we ultimately decide to spend our time. Jennifer lives, works, and plays in North Van with her husband, two daughters, and a puppy, and I hope you enjoy this conversation. And now here's Jen. So, welcome to you, Jen. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 3:33
Very excited to be here, Christina, and continue our long time conversation.
Speaker 1 3:37
Yes, we have been pretty fixated on that notion of time management, so I thought I would just start, because when I dropped that podcast that was really focusing on all our Oliver Berkman's work, you said that the concept of finitude just like really stuck with you. You were very excited about that. You, you texted me right away. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, what did that unlock for you?
Speaker 2 4:01
Yeah, well, so time is a limited resource, and you know it's one of the only resources that I see as having limits, and so for me it really hit home that it was a finite resource, so you know, in early in my career I had some more scarcity versus abundance, and so it really impacted what I said yes to, and I found myself, you know, over committed, and so when I think about how I manage my time and opportunities, finitude really is the current guideline, it's the boundary that provides boundless fulfillment, you know, and so it just really hit home with me, and I ended up putting, putting it on my phone as a picture, so that when I get to my unlock screen, it just guides my thinking around commitments, life, everything.
Speaker 1 4:58
Wow, and. Yet I think a lot of people, when confronted with the notion of finitude, might have a different response, might have a bit of a different, maybe a bit of fear, maybe a bit of anxiety, but I'm hearing from you it elevated your experiences, or it is elevating your experiences,
Speaker 2 5:16
absolutely. And it's interesting, because starting out as a coach, you know, you're like you can achieve anything, the limits there are none, right? Yeah, and it now to have come full circle really with that limits are actually where my freedom sits and where I feel it is so interesting to me.
Speaker 1 5:35
Yeah, what a beautiful paradox. And I think you know I'm always off doing these deep dives into different topics, and I won't scare listeners with the topic of death just yet, but there is a way in which I think there's a lot of parallels in a lot of spiritual traditions of exactly what you just said, that limits offer freedom, that when we are confronted with the limit, then there's almost like an enforcement of the enjoyment of whatever it is that we're up to, in a bit of a different way, is that sort of parallel what you're experiencing.
Speaker 2 6:05
Absolutely, and it started for me, actually, I hadn't put it together till you used that word, and I really resonated, but it started with, for me, with having limits and getting into sort of a niche in terms of my work, and I, when I was able to limit that, I felt just so much power, and actually so much opportunity, and then, so it's almost like it's now come even more into the way I design my life, with limits and boundaries, including with people, and it's just really taken up now its own energy and and absolutely feels to me very powerful,
Speaker 1 6:48
yeah, and I think this is a great place to sort of segue into another piece, because it sounds like having that sort of, you've you've unleashed this power by confronting these limits, and since you and I have known each other, you've made some pretty big changes to your lifestyle, so just to kind of reflect, you know, you and I met when we were working inside healthcare, then you left paid employment, you went on to do some consulting, you did a lot in person, then you shifted your business, I remember, to be 100% virtual, you were very much about, I don't want to drive places. I was kind of like, wow, you can do that. Next, you built a successful online program for women leaders. You've done a lot of things I think other coaches and consultants, including myself, would be pretty envious of. And now here you are, making another big shift, perhaps a little bit more away from coaching. So, two things help me understand, like what is guiding you to do those changes, and then secondly, where do you get the chutzpah to go so big and risk the first one, what's guiding you?
Speaker 2 7:51
Yeah, my highest value is freedom, it's not autonomy, it's actually like untethered freedom, like absolute no limit, like it's interesting, because we're talking about limits,
Speaker 1 8:05
but I heard you, freedom,
Speaker 2 8:08
freedom, and, and so, as well as purpose, so there's there's kind of a self-focused guidance around that top value that guides me in making a lot of decisions, and also in having purpose and discovering, which I'm still doing my purpose in the world, and I still have yet to discover more there, and where I want to make an impact, and so it's that discovery quest of what is that impact, and then also this, this like need for freedom, this desire to live in a way that where I can be where I want to be, do what I want to do, whatever I want, without having a lot of, a lot of expectations on me, essentially. So, so the lot of the career decisions and the move toward being virtual, and then even moving away from coaching, which was 23 years, an incredible 23 years of one to one coaching was was really guided by knowing there's something different I want to contribute to, and wanting less appointments in my day.
Speaker 1 9:14
Yeah, so then, so then it's one thing to, you know, I get everything you're saying, like the whole notion of freedom, and then the purpose, and then lots and lots of discovery that's going on, but so then, How do you manage the fear, and maybe I'm assuming that there is fear there in the ambiguity, or those moments in between, or you know that proverbial sort of metaphor of the trapeze bars, right? Like you're on one, like how do you manage that, letting go of one to go to the next, because you're doing a lot of trapeze jumping, it seems.
Speaker 2 9:47
Well, you know me, I, I actually plan quite a bit, you know, when I wrapped my personal coaching, when my one to one coaching, I made that decision one year before I did it, so. So I actually plan for all of these moves way in advance, and you know, and currently planning, you know, for example, in two years we're selling our home and going to be mortgage free, and you know all of that, we made the decision three years ago, and so we've been working toward that, it's a three year, you know, decision, a three year execution. So, I will say that, yes, it looks like I'm hanging like a monkey jumping from trapeze to trapeze,
Speaker 1 10:30
but I'm really not. I'm making these decisions very calculated, based on a lot of pros and cons, discussions with, you know, my family, and all sorts of things, yeah. So, you've just brought up something really interesting, because it's on the one hand the flavor of freedom, and then on the other hand, the flavor of like goals and planning and calculation. They can sometimes feel like they're a bit mutually exclusive, yeah. But what is amazing to me is not only that you are using them together, but that you're doing it quickly. Does that make sense? Like, what I just sort of acknowledged in what you're up to.
Speaker 2 11:09
Yeah, I am doing it relatively quickly. And I was having a conversation last night. I think I'm.. I live a little bit on if.. if you know how, when you speed up a podcast to 1.25 I think that's kind of my pace in life, and none of
Speaker 1 11:27
my listeners speed up the podcast. I just know they don't. Oh, yeah, just kidding, they probably do. I actually
Speaker 2 11:33
don't when I listen to podcasts, but that's just an interesting metaphor. I think that I definitely do things quickly. I've always moved quickly. In fact, I had to figure out earlier on to slow down a little bit, so I actually have done that, especially with bigger decisions. There's something about, as well, the having the mindset around, you know, learning, and there's no mistakes, and and just seeing everything as a large experiment and discovery that helps with moving more quickly, sometimes
Speaker 1 12:09
you know, it keeps it's reminding me of something you and I talked about so many times when we were doing that adaptive action research, is the balance between structure and flow.
Speaker 2 12:19
Yes, yes, I thought of that a minute ago too, and it's, you know, and I know when we spoke, I always really felt that the structure supported the flow, and you know, and I know there's different ideas about that, and for me it's very true that the structure and the boundaries and the limits really support then that that having that feeling of freedom and flow in my life
Speaker 1 12:50
and I think you know I'll just let people know that you know in Myers Briggs, Jen and I are the opposites in the dichotomy of how we organize our life, so Jen would I, you would prefer J, and I would prefer P, and so that, that sort of, that whole, it was fun that we were working this, this, this whole research together, because for me, for so much of my life, it was just about get everything done, just so I can have absolutely free time, unspoken, nobody needs me for anything, kind of thing, and and when I got it, I could go so far overboard, and then I sort of poke my head up, look around, and go, "Oh, what was I doing? And then just feel completely scattered. And I think in my partnership with you, Jen, I've really, really appreciated the synergy of needing the J in order to really enjoy the P. So almost said another way, it's what you were saying before, about like having finitude gives you that beautiful sense of freedom, like it's so paradoxical what we're talking about. Do you see that as well?
Speaker 2 13:53
I do, and you know, and on the other side, you know, having your perspective from the P place, you know, to challenge sometimes too rigid, like I can, I can get and feel for others very rigid has really actually helped me find the right, the right line there for me, and how I want to show up and how I want to impact others too. So your P energy had, you know, helped me establish a more healthy line there,
Speaker 1 14:25
yeah, yeah, so I mean, I think we just keep coming back to the same place, it's the yin and yang of structure and flow, and that there is the beauty of that structure releases in flow, and the beauty that flow releases in structure, so you know, if you're out there listening, and you're one of those people that's super organized, maybe where are the places where you could let it flow a little bit? And for those who are more inclined to just sort of shoot from the hip, where could you perhaps try out a little bit of structure just as a way to enhance the overall experience? So I'm just going to reference. That podcast I did again, Jen, so I floated Oliver Berkman's idea of how people might use their time differently now if they knew they were never going to get a handle on time management. So, how does that idea sit with you? And do you think you could ever let go entirely of getting a handle on managing time?
Speaker 2 15:19
No, and and I and but he, him, and I actually believe in the same thing. We believe that there's limits and there's power in limits. What I think, and I, you know, I'm making an assumption based on what I heard and how I heard it, but he believes that because time is a limited resource that you should release control on it, and you know I can see his point for some, right, but I'm very talented at managing my time, and it's a skill, it's a skill that I've honed, it's I've honed it, and it really, it requires discipline, so it doesn't just require skill, it requires discipline, and for me that combination works really well, and I feel like I'm living a great life and a great experience in life. So I think for some his approach will work where maybe those two things that they either don't have or don't want to develop that skill, and that's that's fine, there's no right way, or they don't have or don't want to develop the discipline, and and then then just letting go is probably a really great way to try, try to do it, because you, unless you really, because you do, you know, I do spend a lot of time managing my time,
Speaker 1 16:36
yeah, and that's an interesting idea. So, how much time do you spend managing your time, and what does that actually look like?
Speaker 2 16:42
Yeah, well, I have like a power hour that I dedicate, and I typically don't do a lot of work on Fridays that work on me. I work on stuff I need to do in my life, but Thursdays around 2pm I have this power hour in my calendar, and I look ahead to the next week. I, I do any follow-up that I would need to do with people for meetings. I make decisions about whether the week looks the way I want it to, and I make adjustments. So, I do a dedicate an hour every Thursday, and if I, if I have something Friday or I have more to do, I'll move that hour, but that hour happens, you know, that hour happens every week, and that's probably about what I, what I spend on it, though, about a week, but it's concentrated, it's concentrated, and I, you know, I know what I want my week to look and feel like, so it's really a matter of just looking at the calendar and going, does that look and feel how I want it to look and feel, and then making tweaks,
Speaker 1 17:41
yeah. Okay, so two things come up for me. So, an hour sounds like a short time compared to what I'm up to, so I don't.. I'm very curious, and maybe we can unpack some of your, your techniques in that hour. But then, secondarily, you said, you know, I look at my next week and I see if it looks the way I want it to look. So, I think what - what is implied in that is that you have an ability, perhaps, to do last-minute shifting.
Speaker 2 18:08
Yeah,
Speaker 1 18:08
whereas I think one of the biggest barriers that I've heard from leaders when they're trying to manage time is that, like, where do you even just get the shoe horn in, because next week I can't move anything. Yeah, so say a little bit about that. How do you then tweak your week next week?
Speaker 2 18:24
You start four weeks out, you start four weeks out, and then you know, and then you, you reverse. So, in, you know, when I work, when I did work one on one with leaders, that was always what would come up, and they said, okay, let's move out to the next week, let's move out. Sometimes it was eight weeks with someone who is very senior, especially in healthcare, as we discussed, and then, and then we start building in that power hour, we start building in that the reflection, it's really in the reflection that you gain complete control of, well, not complete control, but a lot more control of, of your, of your time in general, so, so, as long as you can take that time to reflect and look wherever, and then start building it in closer, as, as you've built time into your calendar, and as you've made tweaks,
Speaker 1 19:11
right, and I completely agree with that, and, and I guess what I'm wondering is, so you've got what sounds like a habit, right, you're doing it, it's, you know, if it's coming, you probably can feel the itch if you're, you know, pressed for time or whatever, it's going to happen. So, with these senior leaders, that you have to go eight weeks out in their calendar to start to be able to have a little agency, you know, it's a real front-loading investment. Then it seems to me this process. So, in the meantime, then, like, what you know, what do you, what would you say to people to kind of like believe in the dream, you know, you're not going to start to feel the effects for eight weeks, but like, how would you frame that?
Speaker 2 19:51
Yeah, well, I do, I do, even if we start eight weeks out, I do, though, I do sneak in 15. Minutes in the next week of reflection, so for me, then the key to like what you said, agency, an agency is also a belief system, so there are people that believe they have agency and there are people that don't, and even people that you know work for someone else, there's people that believe that they have more agency than others, so agencies and an ingredient here, and if your belief system is such that you don't have agency, then unfortunately you, you likely won't experience the kind of freedom ever, because it, and so it starts with beliefs, right? So talking about the beliefs and talking about how much agency you really believe you have, and sometimes challenging that a little bit with people, and then in the getting in that first 15 minutes of reflective space, and then I, and then I micromanage as a coach for a few weeks, I do, like, you know, micromanaging sometimes it's got a bad rap, but when you're helping someone develop a habit, I put it in my calendar, and when I know that they're going to do that reflection, and I follow up. So, you need a partner, I think you, you and I had a partnership, so it doesn't have to be a coach. You need a partner in this process, it can be anyone who's willing to just hold you accountable to reflect you. You will find, though, that in that first, if someone does that first 15 minutes of reflection in that week, they start to feel differently, they start to feel more powerful, they start to actually be able to tweak things, because they realize that they have more agency and control than they think, and so, yeah, good point, we start looking further out, but we start reflecting for a very small amount of time every week, first, right? And that starts to create that change in the momentum.
Speaker 1 21:49
So, it sounds like you're really setting up these incremental small wins, and almost sounds like what you're also doing, what is also occurring in a more subtle way, is that their sense of agency might also be increasing alongside that.
Speaker 2 22:03
Yes, I think with reflection on time and making tweaks and making requests, because you know you start by saying, you know, I can't, I, you know, I can't do that, there's too many people involved, or you know, to make a change there, but once you position it as well. Why don't you make a request, you know, versus like you have to change it. People start to see that many people actually want to help people have more balance or figure it out. So making, making one request of someone that has a commitment with them can change, can start to change their beliefs too.
Speaker 1 22:38
Yeah, fully. And I know I was working with a group of leaders in municipal government the other day, and at the beginning of the day, the number one barrier to being able to do any sort of personal reflection, individual professional development, all that kind of stuff, was of course time, but as the day went along and they had the opportunity to dig a little deeper and really understand the sheer lack of presence they were actually having in the meetings that they were having, they recognized the correlation of their participation style with the very low outcomes of these meetings and how incredibly inefficient they were. So, through this process of actually, and not everybody can take a day away from their work. I get that, and these people were lucky that they got to actually experience what you and I are talking about, which is there is a great big illusion out there about the lack of agency, which is, I think, a great place I want to segue in, because you and I have both spent time working inside healthcare, and we well recall the culture of overwhelm and busyness. Right, it's just like, in fact, that's how we met through that adaptive action project. Now, from my point of view, so I'm still supporting a number of leaders in healthcare. It's still very much the same, if not even more challenging since Covid. Okay. Million dollar question: What do you think it is that makes it so difficult for large systems to shift that culture, we call it time management, we can talk, call it, you know, having more agency, because we've sort of expanded to include that, but what makes it so difficult?
Speaker 2 24:13
Well, I think it starts at the fundamental belief that's driving how our that system is set up, and you know, I don't actually know what that is. I've thought a lot about it. I do think that that system invites very giving bound boundary lists in ways people, in some ways, because they're there, they're drawn to help others. The purpose is so clear, so you know, so, and very often people that are very giving, people that are very caring and empathetic, really struggle with boundaries, right, and so to bring them all together into a system and have a very traditional approach in terms of how. Runs and hierarchical to I think then creates this, you know, this this energy of we have to give, and then I, you know, this is the closest I've gotten to what I think the belief could be underneath. It would be such a question to ask, like, if we could get in there and really ask, like, what do you think is driving this system to act this way. I think it really comes from wanting to make a difference, wanting to give, wanting to give, but not actually seeing the value in how having those boundaries can actually support that. And you and I also know, and I worked with a number of physician leaders, with senior leaders in healthcare, burnout is very real. There are way too, way too many right now people that are just absolutely at their end, and you know that I think that you know we're coming off of the pandemic as well, but I think you know my hope is that with with this there will be this potential, you know, invitation to actually recreate it in a different way. What do you think, though? Like, when I throw that to you, as, like, the, you know, that this giving piece.. like, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1 26:18
I think it's really fascinating, and I think that I hadn't linked it up quite so succinctly as you had, and so I just noticed I had a bit of an aha in that moment, that people that are coming, you know, you could call healthcare like a romance industry, like people come for their heart, right? Yeah, and that I really appreciate your noticing the pairing that that often comes with potentially poor boundaries, so that would answer, I think, a lot of the patterns that we see, like for instance, you know, I was blown away when I started working in healthcare, the meeting culture is like never seen anything like it, it's like mushrooms grow everywhere,
Speaker 3 26:56
yeah,
Speaker 1 26:57
but, but more specifically, how people would not block time between meetings, and so I remember I used to giggle about it at the first part, because it was before Covid, and everything was virtual, and I used to say, well, how you going to time travel up to the fifth floor? Like, how's that going to work for you? Not to mention the fact that anything that gets discussed in the meeting that becomes an action item that you've now taken on, like, do you even know what you're doing, when you're going to do it, how you're going to do it? Like, when does all that get sorted if you're in meetings all day long? So I think a combination of like the lack of boundaries as you're describing, and then I also think it, you know, we create almost a kind of a sucking culture where you're just like the culture is so powerful that it's too hard to stand against it, and I know that for myself, my decision to leave healthcare and support it from the outside in was the recognition of how many sandbags it would take to stem the flow that was trying to get me to go in that surge, you know, I mean, I'm a pretty conscious person about this, as are you, and I would find myself falling in these holes and being overbooked, and, oh, for almost forgot this part, ended up going on a stress leave, so yeah, right there in the middle of it, I recall how difficult it was, and so, while I think I could probably have continued to sandbag, I didn't want to, and I knew that there was, you know, there was other work that I wanted to put that energy into, but it is fascinating, because I think we did see that possibility emerge six months into Covid, where people were recognizing that it was extreme circumstances, and so they were pulling out all the stops, and we were seeing teams like change direction, pivot, shift policies in a fraction of the time that it normally took, so there was this like little high where people were sort of going, this is amazing, we can do it, and then, of course, you know, I think people were kind of going, okay, well, so now shouldn't this be back to normal, and it wasn't, not only after six months, but two years. I still think it isn't back to normal, so yeah, it's a complicated one.
Speaker 2 29:13
It is, and I resonate with your reasoning for leaving in mine very clearly seeing that if, if I wanted to stay internal and be part of that internal, that it would take just this incredible amount of energy from me to withstand, you know, the force of the energy of the system, and it just wasn't, it just wasn't serving me personally, and then I chose too to support from the outside in.
Speaker 1 29:51
Hey, you're listening to the Squeeze, and if you like what you're hearing, there's a whole world of citrus couching to discover. We've got an online leadership. Program, it's called Citrus You, and it features those three key tools you need to be a better leader, well, to be a better human. We also have a number of mini learning bundles that you can get into, and there's plenty more. If you're interested, you can follow us on Instagram, or check out our website@www.citruscoaching.com and the show resumes now, and I think it's really interesting too, because you know, even with this group I was working with the other day, they kept talking about the organization as that thing over there, and so I had to pull on that, I think it's Robert Short, I'm probably saying the wrong name, but his quote is like, the organization is not out there outside of you, it's right here, it's in you, you are the organization, and you know, so, so I think that, that on the flip, that almost kept me in longer, perhaps than I needed to be, because I thought, okay, well, I am the change, right, Gandhi, I am the change I want to see in this organization, and I think there's truth to that, right? It's the old starfish story that I think many of us learned in coach training way back in the beginning, you know. Beach full of starfish baking in the sun, kid throwing one at a time into the water, old guy comes up and goes, "This is going to take you forever, that's not going to make a difference, and kid chucks starfish number 70 whatever in the water, and goes, well, it made a difference to that one, and I think that was definitely a way that I really tried to, you know, contribute in that world, and I think eventually the size of the system and the slowness of the shifts kind of got to me, and that's where I thought, okay, I need to go find a beach where I can, you know, make a bigger change. Was that similar for you? Do you think?
Speaker 2 31:47
Yeah, it was. And you're making me think of something that I bump up against a lot with regards to boundaries. It often comes up in any discussion is the emotional intelligence concept of, you know, stay or cut bait, and to go with the fishing kind of ocean, is you know this idea that in every person, and it's based, you know, on on how we were brought up and raised in our secure or unsecure attachment, insecure attachment, you know, we have within us the ability to sometimes, you know, cut bait and sometimes stay too long, with, you know, the opposite of that is staying too long, and in systems, relationships, and anything that is not healthy, and so I think in us, in this case, you know, we were exercising a healthy aspect of emotional intelligence to see the opportunity to, to separate, right, because it wasn't, it wasn't serving us, and so, and I think that's a really interesting concept for people to think about for themselves, and to consider their patterns there, and in, you know, I still see, and sometimes see myself with, with sometimes I cut bait very quickly and easily, and so when I made that decision, I had to ask myself, is that's what's going on here, but, but, but I was able to determine, no, this was a healthy decision, but I think it's important when you think about boundaries, you think about your patterns with that particular aspect of self.
Speaker 1 33:29
That's a great point. I love that. That's a really good metaphor. And I think you and I have had so many conversations over the years about what we've actually been trying to do, which is, you know, largely to a point, anyway, support leaders develop leaders, and then we've looked at all these different sort of vehicles and ways to sort of amplify what it is we're doing, and so I think also inside of a big system, you know, they're like I was one coach, you were one coach, and I worked in an organization of 26,000 I don't know how big yours was, but pretty big, and now we're on the outside. We've had lots of years of playing with different, you know, sort of different delivery methods. I think I've referenced a number of those in the introduction that you've been working on and doing. I've also been playing with this idea of amplification beyond sort of that one on one framework, so I guess I'm curious, you know, since you and I left paid employment, you and I have participated in lots of collaborations together. In fact, I'll just reference that after, you know, when Covid got going, you know, as a sort of solo consultant, feeling a little bit disconnected, perhaps. After all my team time, I sort of just invited a few people in to kind of coalesce around something we could do to support healthcare workers, which ended up kind of becoming this small group that we called Elevate Leadership Alliance, ELA, and that was great. I think there's about six of us, seven. Of us, we started up a Facebook group. We were trying to find ways that we could support healthcare workers. We were doing some pro bono stuff with some of the health authorities. Anyway, as we were like participating in all those types of collaborations, like you and I, I think have really enjoyed a synergy, and I think a lot of that comes from our understanding of our differences and our similarities, and being able to leverage that. I think it's also really easy for a group to come together, you know, be like-minded, and just really collaborate. And I think it's also super, super healthy, mental health wise. I think we've also recognized, you and I, that sometimes execution and follow through can be a bit tricky, so it's like my husband always says, "Oh yeah, I'm the purveyor of ideas, yeah, I got ideas, I'm the idea man. I think ideas are really the easy part, but when people have different styles and different needs, I'm curious, like what advice you would have for someone out there who's trying to navigate that balance between sort of that innovation, right? Like, this is so fun. We're brainstorming, look at all these things, and the actual execution, which I actually believe you are quite strong at. What would be the sort of advice you might give to folks in that situation?
Speaker 2 36:15
Yeah, well, two things come up. I think individual discipline, and you know, on the individual front, it takes discipline. Everybody wants to just spur ideas all day. I would like to as well, and I can come up with some great ones, but really, execution is a skill. It takes discipline, so individual discipline, and so that's one thing, but How do you access people's, you know, where they're at with that, because again, and discipline is a choice, and some people don't want it or need it, and live life fine. When you interact with a group, though, it's like you're signing up to be part of something, and so with the way that I think we can access that when in our collaborations is to is to absolutely pause and have ground rules, you know, have those alliance forming discussions upfront. We all knew in our, in our collaboration we had a similar purpose, and and that was enough, and you know the purpose also why we formed two brought us together and gave us something we were getting something out of it too when it evolved to wanting to do more and create stuff that's when we were trying to develop those ground rules, right. And so it's interesting because you sometimes get together out of passion and excitement, and then, though, it hits a point, it can hit a point where you discover that you know to get things done, there needs to be a little more structure, right? Once again, once again, the structure comes in to support the work, and so I think knowing, and it's not like, you know, I look at people and I say, I guess you're, you know, I sum them up and say, like, you're not disciplined, but I have to say, when I do any partnership or collab collaboration now, I do suss that out to an extent, because I don't want to collaborate with someone that doesn't have a similar commitment to that, because it just, it just, it's hard, and, and I just don't feel like it would, you know, serve anyone. So, yeah, I think discipline and ground rules.
Speaker 1 38:36
Yeah, so for someone who's hearing the word discipline and cringing, and maybe even starting to edge out of the room. How would you help that person fall in love with discipline?
Speaker 2 38:45
You know, that's a good question. I mean, I think I don't know if it's easy to fall in love with it. It brings up, like, I right now I'm very.. I'm working around the concept of accountability, and I was recently in an organization, and they said we not use that word. I'm like, no, I'm not the person for you, because I'm not like, I'm not gonna change the word.
Speaker 1 39:09
What was the word they wanted, just out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 39:12
Ask that, and they were like responsibility, and I'm like, yeah, but it's different. That can define both very clearly. They're different, yeah. And you know, when you sign up to be part of an organization, you know, there's a certain level of responsibility and accountability. Accountability, though, is a personal choice, and just like discipline, so I don't, I don't know how to help someone is set, except to start to think about, you know, what they, what they actually really want to achieve, and then you know that it's really about being motivated, because motivation is what actually I think helps create discipline. It actually fuels, fuels the, and discipline is, I know it's a loaded word, it just. Feels the energy, we can just call it energy and commitment, right, to do, to do something. So,
Speaker 1 40:05
yeah,
Speaker 2 40:06
yeah, I think we almost
Speaker 1 40:07
have another yin yang on our hands here. You know, when we, when we talk about the structure and flow of time management with actually getting stuff that we want, or achieving stuff, or moving in a direction, like the discipline has to be there, the balance with the idea, right. So, just when you know, when we're thinking about collaboration, and I really appreciate your, your rigor and holding that line, and not like being willing to change the word, because I agree that there is rigor for a reason, and I don't know, maybe I don't want to segue too far out into space, but if you look at our sort of some of the cultural elements that we're seeing reflected in popular culture right now, around, I mean, you'd think that we all have nerves on the outside of our skin, like we're all being so careful, and everybody is really trying to soften, so even just to take the word accountability away, I think, would be.. I think it would be a big loss. I think you'd, you know, you'd actually like miss a very important ingredient of what is required actually to do anything to get anywhere in life.
Speaker 2 41:13
Yeah, and absolutely, with anything we do with others has to come empathy. You can, you could do anything if you have true empathy, and if you care. Empathy, I heard the other day that compassion is empathy in action. I liked that a lot. I'm not.. I need to think more about it, but I liked it at my.. I want to think more about it, and I think that with accountability, it's actually, you know, you're holding someone creative, resourceful, and able to achieve, achieve, you know, achieve. It's not achieving for the sake of achieving something that they want, or that has been a goal that has been set. So, it's a, it's a, yeah, I don't think I'll ever shy away from using that word, even though you're right, everything is softening. I don't think we can soften there.
Speaker 1 42:05
Well, I think if we do, we're going to see some unintended consequences, which perhaps we weren't sort of prepared for. I'm really struck by the theme of these, the sort of the yin and the yang, and the balance of these different sort of polarities that we're looking at, because I think that in itself is fascinating, that seems that our mind, our very basic average mind, just really wants to polarize in black and white, and I think that's part of our need for control, but really what I'm really leaning into, and maybe it's a stage of life, is just that there is so much more aliveness in the balancing of those two places, that it's not, and, or, sorry, it's not if it really mixing myself up, it's not one or the other, it's the combination of those two things is actually what is creating the thing that I am, you know, valuing, but also most in sync with. I think
Speaker 2 42:58
I love that. I need, I definitely want to think about that with other, with regards to others, because we've talked about a couple here, there's, I bet there's, I bet there's lots more, I'm sure
Speaker 1 43:09
there's loads. Yeah, so let me take a little decidedly, I don't know, light hearted direction here, just I could see you and I carrying on a conversation for a while, and I remember when that that new app came out, what was it called, Clubhouse, I think, and I got that, I got a secret invite, or whatever, and we thought it was all going to be the new Twitter, it wasn't, and you and I set up and had a conversation, and like they beat the door down, like the bouncers were turning them away, and actually I don't think anybody came and listened to us, but no, all to say I think when we put our mind to it, we're interested in so many of the same things, we're interested not just in the what, but the how and the subtleties, and all the while learning about ourselves as we go through it, so easy to fill up lots more time, and I want to also manage time, because that's kind of what we're talking about, so just for kicks,
Speaker 2 44:05
yeah,
Speaker 1 44:05
bucket lists, yeah, bucket lists, everybody's talking about them,
Speaker 2 44:08
yeah,
Speaker 1 44:08
love them or hate them, and why,
Speaker 2 44:10
yeah, it's interesting, because my daughter just did one for the summer, and I had you had sent me the questions to think about in advance of this, and so I had already had an answer there, but it's interesting, because I was gonna say I'm pretty neutral on them, but it shifted a little, because you know, she, she has some pretty cool stuff on there, like little amazing, like fly a kite, and then I just put, like, I just put it out on my buy nothing group, my daughter wants a fly kite, and I got four beautiful kites, so now everyone in our family is gonna go fly a kite on the beach in Birch Bay, and I'm excited for that. Right, I know, yeah. So, but what I was going to say before, like, so I don't have a bucket list, but I tend to create like micro buck. It lists, so like little tiny, we'll call them like cups, like micro cup lists for particular time, like a vacation or a particular like phase, like this summer. I look at things in like quarters, right, and that's mostly because over the last little while I've realized that long term planning is really just a fairy tale, so we're interested in, like, shorter-term planning. So, a bucket list to me would be important for, like, a period of time that's not too far away.
Speaker 1 45:34
Yeah. Awesome. I'm going to ask you about buy nothing in a second, but before I do, I'm just.. I'm, when I'm recording this. I'm literally on the day before I'm off for the summer, and so I really love the idea of like just a small focus, because I mean, bucket list, right? It's a kick the bucket list, right? That's what the name is about, which is to me strikes me as anyway, whatever. So I really love the idea of I'm gonna actually, I think I'm gonna, I think I'm going to sit down and come up with something for the summer, because I love that idea. Okay, now you referenced the Buy Nothing group. What the heck was that?
Speaker 2 46:07
Oh my goodness, so in every community, like pretty much this is a movement, you'll have one near you. It's a, it's actually a micro, so there's a finite area. Now it's very geographical based, and, and the idea is to can to create community in a very finite area, so there's boundaries of the location, and you can ask, or you can gift, and ours is super active, there's, you know, we had to tap it at 1000 1000 people, like, east of the Seymour River, like it's very finite. So, the other beauty of that is I'm never driving to White Rock to pick up a kite, right? I'm staying in, you know, the North Van area that I live in, and so that's the whole point of these. But what it does is it creates community. So, just to make that connection, I actually posted my daughter's bucket list on the Buy Nothing group, because, and I got like 100 comments and exchanges with people that some I knew, some I don't, because it's within the community around, you know, just how cool that was, and so sharing the idea of doing a bucket list with your kids came from that, and many families decided to do it as a result, but the point of the group is to actually give and receive goods, give and receive goods, and it's there's no cost, and you share, you give, you let it simmer, so that's like big concept with the buy nothing, so you know how on marketplace or on other places it's like first come first serve, get here today, you know, the point of this is you put, you put a dog toy on there, and you say, tell me why your dog would love this, or you know, post a picture of your dog, and I'm going to choose from the pictures, like who I give it to, so it's really about creating story, creating community, and not consuming, helping your neighbors with their needs from the community, so it's a really wow,
Speaker 1 48:06
yeah. What I love so much about it is it is the combination of online and actually neighborhood, like physical space that you could walk potentially to people's. I love that. Okay, well, I'm definitely going to check that out. Okay, nice. Thanks for the tip. Last bonus question, yeah, before we wrap up. And you've been super generous, I love this time. Chat GPT, yeah, tried it yet?
Speaker 2 48:30
Yes, yes, the jury is out on that. I mean, there's so much to think about there. What I'm really interested in is what I'm seeing. I have two daughters, and how this is evolving their relationship with their learning and their teachers and the rules, and so it's, it's really interesting to see that play out. That's the real important thing for me in it, and then the bigger concept of AI in general, and how that is going to evolve our society, but again, you know, maybe it's because I'm overwhelmed by it, but I'm most interested in how it's impacting them right now, and how they're learning from it, but also how it's supporting their learning, and the best use of it that I've heard of, because I asked, I asked people about it, is I had a leader tell me that they use it to play the devil's advocate with their decisions, so that I thought was a really good use. So it's like I'm thinking of doing this, what am I not thinking about? And
Speaker 1 49:35
whoa,
Speaker 2 49:36
I know
Speaker 1 49:38
that's a good one.
Speaker 2 49:39
Yeah, so that when I heard that, I was like, that's a, that can be a very powerful tool, because all that information out there that's synthesized, that's coming through this, you know, this this app, or whatever we want to call it, is, is could be useful if you just want to expand the knowledge on something, or have you think about something that you're not thinking about, so. That's what I'll say, that's what I might use it for in the near future. What do you think?
Speaker 1 50:05
Well, I'm trying everything and anything.
Speaker 2 50:09
Yeah,
Speaker 1 50:09
I shouldn't, I shouldn't say it, but I will, because it's completely changed since then. So, don't worry, Robin, when you're listening to this, if you are. So, we, Mark, and I actually were using it to help him start to write his speech for Robin's wedding, so what I'm really struck by is for some reason I'm really good at prompts, and I think that's like, and I really suck at Google prompts because I put too much stuff in, and I don't know if you remember back when Ask Jeeves was around, but like that's how I would formulate my searches, so when I do Chat GPT, I'll write often two full paragraphs. I'll talk about the tone I want, I'll talk about, you know, some of my cautions, I'll talk about the key points, I'll talk about how many sentences, and then I just click and I go away and I come back, and I've used it for numerous different purposes. I was designing a course, I needed a synopsis, so I just plugged in what the key points were and what I wanted the takeaways to be, what the tone would be, what the leader, you know, level would be, and it was just like, wow, amazing, and all of this to say that when I was fall, and I've been following AI very, very closely, listening to interviews with Sam Altman, the CEO of Open AI, and I felt so much trepidation, and I still do, but more around general intelligence, and I won't, you know, go down that rabbit hole, but there's a way that I was really afraid for the loss of jobs for writers, of which I'm one, and you know, I just started seeing everything on Reddit, all the subreddits talking about job loss, and so I kind of got into that mode of feeling that way, but I actually realized that Chat GPT is actually helping my writing, and I really never thought I'd say that in a million years, because it doesn't get the final authority, it doesn't have my sort of unique ideas, I plant those ideas, and it just sort of throws in additional things, so yeah, and I'm not using the paid version yet, I may move into that, I understand there's a lot of new options with, you know, just graphics and different more creative outcomes, but for the time being, yeah, I'm kind of surprised. Didn't see that one coming.
Speaker 2 52:26
No, no, and it's really important, I think, to try, like you say, everything. I mean, we cannot.. I don't think I cannot just let this stuff go and say, like, I want to be involved and learn about it, so that I can be educated and make, yeah, make full use of everything that's out there in the world. So,
Speaker 1 52:48
yeah, well, and so you know, and I've said this to my listeners the last couple of podcasts, possibly I get so excited, I talk so fast.
Speaker 4 52:57
The
Speaker 1 52:57
last couple of podcasts I've referenced that I'm in process of researching an episode on AI, so that is something that's fascinating, and you know, I mean, half the reason I would say more than half the reason I do podcasting is because I'm just so interested in learning, and so I have to do these deep dives, and and then the bonus, and what's beginning to happen now, as people are listening and getting back to me, such as you did, such as Bryn did in the last episode, hearing things, wanting to talk further, and so it's granting that me this desire of the community around the conversation of these things, and so Jen, you and I have had, you know, connection through many different vehicles over the years, it's quite profound, and now here we are, and you're, you know, a guest on this podcast episode, of which I'm super grateful for. So I want to just like take a moment to acknowledge like the years we've had, and appreciating you for all you've taught me, and just the way that we found the synergy of our I'm doing the sign of the yin and yang right now, so yeah. Full gratitude, full gratitude to you for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your voice. Thank you for the opportunity to, you know, expand my understanding of why I was so connected to that concept that, that brought, you know, this idea to speak further about it, affinity together, and you know, since we, since that, I've thought so much about it, and I really appreciate your podcast, and the depth that you go to help
Speaker 2 54:30
explore topics, to explore topics in a way that is, is, is really fulsome, and invites people to think. So, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 54:38
Yeah, my pleasure. You're welcome. So, if you're interested in learning more about Jen, I'll have all kinds of things in the show notes, so you can check her out. But yeah, so in the meantime, thanks again, Jen, for being our guest today. And for folks listening, if you want to comment, questions, anything like that, feel free of. Weiss, until next time. So you've been listening to The Squeeze. Thanks for joining us today. If you want to continue tuning in, don't forget to click subscribe. And, as always, we want to hear your thoughts, your comments, your feedback, and challenges, if there's anything you don't agree with. Thanks for joining us, and see you next time.
Unknown Speaker 55:25
Bye.