Harnessing Neuroscience in Leadership with Dr. Carlos Davidovich
How can understanding the brain transform your leadership style? In this episode, we’re diving into the intersection of neuroscience and leadership with Dr. Carlos Davidovich. Originally trained as a medical doctor in Argentina, Dr. Davidovich has spent the last 20 years as an executive coach in Europe, the US, and Canada. He is a professor of neuromanagement in the MBA program at the University of New York in Prague, a guest lecturer for the Master's in Leadership program at the University of Guelph, and a thought leader with the Institute of Coaching at McLean Hospital, a Harvard Medical School affiliate.
Listen in as Dr. Davidovich shares his insights on the reptilian brain's role in our instinctual reactions and how leaders can develop self-awareness to manage these impulses. We also explore the concept of the heart as a brain and its significance in emotional intelligence and decision-making. This episode offers practical strategies for leaders to foster a culture of empathy, manage stress, and maintain mental health in high-pressure environments.
And as with everything I share on the podcast, this is what I believe based on what I’ve read and researched. But please don’t take my word for it. Keep what sticks, discard the rest and for goodness sakes, go out and test drive it!
What You’ll Learn In Today’s Episode:
The impact of the reptilian brain on our immediate reactions and how to manage these impulses.
Strategies for leaders to develop self-awareness and implement new behavior patterns.
The role of the heart as a "brain" and its influence on emotional intelligence and decision-making.
Practical advice for managing stress and maintaining mental health in demanding environments.
Insights into dealing with bully bosses and establishing boundaries to maintain self-respect.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
“Anxiety cannot live in our head or body when we are focusing on the present time.” - Carlos Davidovich
“Let’s stop talking about time management - that is absolutely the wrong target.” - Carlos Davidovich
“100% of the information that comes to us through our senses will impact first the reptilian brain.” - Carlos Davidovich
“Servant leadership is to lead by the heart, and that, in a practical way, is compassionate leadership.” - Carlos Davidovich
“Stress is a completely normal physiological system.” - Carlos Davidovich
Resources:
Five-Brains: How Neuroscience Can Help You to Become a Better Leader
Five Brain Leadership: How Neuroscience Can Help You Master Your Instincts and Build Better Teams by Carlos Davidovich
Structures to support your growth:
1) Block reflection time
2) Protect your reflection time
3) Advertise what you're up to
Activities for reflection:
1) Start with the end in mind - Map it out / Big picture vision
2) Right here, right now check-in - ask these 4 questions: 1- what's been happening in your day so far? 2 - what's taking up the most bandwidth in your mind? 3 - what emotions are you feeling? 4 - what do you want or need right now?
3) Mindfulness - get grounded
4) Know Thyself - personality assessments, biases, leadership styles, etc.
Build supportive relationships:
Like-minded colleagues
Community connections
Mentors
Coaches
Connect with me: Instagram
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Speaker 1 0:01
Hey, it's Christina. Thanks for joining us. And welcome to the Squeeze.
Speaker 2 0:13
Stress is completely normal. It's a normal physiological system, I
Speaker 1 0:26
My guest on the show today is Dr. Carlos Davidovich. Carlos was originally trained as a medical doctor in Argentina, and he now works in Europe, US, and Canada as an executive coach. He works with organizational leaders and management teams applying neuroscience and neuro management, and he's been doing that for the last 20 years. Carlos is a professor of neuro management in the MBA program at the University of New York in Prague, Czech Republic. He's a guest lecturer for the Master's in Leadership program at the Lang School of Business and Economics at the University of Guelph in Canada, and he is also a thought leader with the Institute of Coaching at McLean Hospital, a Harvard Medical School affiliate. I first came across Carlos' work from his 2022 TEDx conference at the University of New York in Prague, speaking on the topic of five brain leadership. Carlos is also the author of Five Brain Leadership: How Neuroscience Can Help You Master Your Instincts and Build Better Teams. He currently resides in Madrid. And I hope you enjoy our conversation. But just a quick housekeeping note: the audio in this episode is not great, and I apologize for that. Sometimes it's challenging syncing up Zoom with guests who are halfway around the world. What can I say? Technology, but please do listen beyond the less than perfect audio quality for the gems from this conversation. It was fabulous. Okay, welcome to the show, Carlos. Thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 2 2:00
Really, a pleasure being with you. Thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 2:03
Yes, you're so welcome. Okay, Carlos, I'm going to start by quoting something that you said at the end of your 2022 TEDx talk. You finish your talk by saying that we are quote emotional beings with a brand new rational software that we need to learn to trust, end quote. This strongly aligns with something I've believed and shared with clients for years, but I talk about it in a slightly different way. I say that in spite of our strongly held desire to be and to appear rational, because that is, of course, what is privileged in our culture here in the West, for many reasons, it is actually emotions that are driving the bus. That's how I describe it. I've also read that something like 80% of our impulses on any given day are originating from our emotions, and I know that you also talk about the connection between emotions and motivation, so I'm not imagining disagreement on that, where this gets interesting, at least for me, anyways, is in conflict. So I myself have been guilty of thinking I'm the rational one in an argument with my spouse when I'm anything but, and it's pretty shocking for me to discover after the fact, just how easily I fell for the illusion of my own rationality, and I think what makes it even worse sometimes for me personally is that because I read and research so much about relationships, I can stand there and quote something in a very calm voice, but on the inside I'm undoubtedly expending all kinds of energy trying to appear rational, and I'm pretty sure that if I didn't have some kind of, like, really well-trained governor on my emotions, I would yell a lot more. So, here's, here's my question. I heard you explaining on another podcast about how to manage those reptilian brain reactions, and that's probably not even said correctly, but I need to ask you to break it out for me and for my listeners. How can we get in front of what feels like a split second reaction?
Speaker 2 4:15
So it's so important noise saying Christina, because I the words that come word that comes to my mind, the first word that comes to my mind is self awareness. That is quite difficult. Don't get me wrong, self awareness, I mean, to be self awareness, self awareness. Sorry, sorry, sorry for my Spanish self awareness of knowing what it's what you said, something you gave such a concrete example. I think I'm very rational with my spouse, but in the end I'm not. So what happened is that your reptilian brain, let's say the instinctual part of you is. Hijacking, you know, the rational brain, and knows perfectly how to use it, and this is the key, I will say, core of conflicted conversation, or confrontational conversation. The point is, remember, the retinian brain reacts, or that survival state or mode that is activated in 1/5 of a second, so it's almost impossible to block it, and to say no, I will not react like that unless you train yourself, so when I many times I tell you, coaching people that has have that tendency, I mean to be very aggressive or to react too fast, we do, we do, we do a, we do a specific program, let's say in my coaching practice, and I said, listen, I'm totally aware myself that you cannot stop, so let's do the step one. The step one is at the moment that you realize that you were being aggressive, or let's not in the correct way, apologize right away. So the first step is saying sorry, even though you can say I was not able to help it, sorry, but say it good, so we'll understand.
Speaker 1 6:26
So, right when you're in, when as soon as you realize it, you say I'm sorry,
Speaker 2 6:32
but do it fast, because most of them, what happens, I mean, this is through a coaching process, most of them, because the reptilian brain reacts in this way, they want to stay in that position, but they start finding out that the consequences in the relationship with people are negative, so that's why they are bringing this to the coaching meeting, and I say, "Okay, listen, let's go step by step. So I will not, I will not say something nonsense, something like, "Oh, you need to control yourself now, because I know it's impossible. It's absolutely impossible. So, please, once happened that you really reacted in that way, please ask, say sorry, and people will stand understanding what's going on. Second step, people that have this tendency to be a.. I don't want to use only the word aggressive, impulsive, impulsive will be maybe a better word, they need to learn a new pattern of behavior. Say, learning this is not about me telling them, 'Hey, that was too much, or 'Maybe you need to control. No, no, it doesn't work. Why? Because they already have - they already have a pattern in their brain. The pattern is I just respond whatever comes to my mind without me, that's what we say normally. We say you speak before you think, you know it's quite, quite real, you know, because it's a resilient brain before you can bring the information here to really think properly,
Speaker 1 8:20
right.
Speaker 2 8:21
So step number one is say sorry. Then people will say, okay, at least you realize that was not correct. Step number two, I tell you what I do. This is my
Speaker 1 8:34
technique.
Speaker 2 8:36
Identify a person in your team. Normally, I work with people in companies and organizations, and that somebody that you really trust, that person will become your controller. So, from now on, you will make a deal with this at the moment that everybody is in the meeting, whatever. So this person can see you, that will be the controller, and at the end of the meeting will tell you that was too much. This, you should have stopped here. Why? Because that person is to learn a new pattern. I'm explaining myself properly. Okay, so what I mean is, let's not ask for something real. This is not to tell people you don't have to do that, because that's in words, because they don't get it. So, when somebody is very impulsive, let's use that, keep using that word, they need to learn what impulsivity means, and also they need to learn the gap between the intent and the impact.
Speaker 1 9:54
Yeah,
Speaker 2 9:55
but that is a learning curve.
Speaker 1 9:58
Yeah, let me have.
Speaker 2 10:00
Fantastic, it's fantastic. How they, how they start understanding. Wow, I didn't realize that when I say this or that, that is taken in such a negative way.
Speaker 1 10:09
Right? Right. Let me unpack this a little bit. I want to make sure I'm tracking, so the first thing, and I mean, I've worked with this pattern in myself and my clients for, you know, decades, and so it's always about how to get out in front of that initial kind of reactivity, and you're saying in 1/5 of a second, yeah, that tracks. So apologizing as the second I notice I'm standing there in the kitchen with that calm voice, quoting something that is, you know, let's say BS, I'm actually quite upset, immediately say I'm sorry. The next piece you talked about was that, like, it's really crucial for us to learn that new pattern, and I love the idea of inviting, like, a colleague or, like, an ally, almost, to be, as you call it, the controller. What I was curious about, you said that, you know, you would get with that person, say, after the meeting, and they'd give you a little bit of a synopsis, like an observer would. Is it ever useful, Carlos, for that person to maybe do a signal, like in the meeting? Okay, and you're pointing, you're pointing, you're excited.
Speaker 2 11:16
So that's the second step, the first step, not during the meeting, because that person will become more aggressive, even so. The second step, when the system is already in place, my recommendation is establish some kind of signal, and that person will do a signal, and you, you know that you need to stop, you know that is too much, so they learn a new pattern of the way of the way of talking and communicating, and it works. I tell you, it works, because, and they say, I never thought that when I was saying this and this and this was taking so negative,
Speaker 1 11:59
yeah,
Speaker 2 11:59
and the funny part is I was aware of the reaction, but I didn't know why.
Speaker 1 12:06
Right, it's almost Carlos. It almost sounds a little bit like cognitive behavioral therapy, a little bit.
Speaker 3 12:12
Yeah, I mean, sort of,
Speaker 1 12:14
you're borrowing a structure. I mean, it definitely sounds effective. What I'm also want to just draw attention to is because I'm fascinated with this is intention and impact because you know so many clients that I work with are trying to change patterns, but if the intention and the impact are, you know, far apart. In other words, my intention is to, I'm going to give a really generic one, lose weight, but I'm eating this cake. The impact isn't always felt immediately, and so it's tough for people to understand that even though I have the best of intentions in this moment, my actions, you know, the negative consequences will not be felt necessarily for a while. So, with somebody who's an aggressive, or I can't remember the word you use, not aggressive, passionate, directed,
Speaker 2 13:05
impulsive,
Speaker 1 13:06
impulsive, impulsive. Somebody who's an impulsive leader, oftentimes they are just cut off from the feedback of their action, right? They're not getting feedback, they don't know the impact of their actions. So, yeah, yeah, so if I notice, let's just say, so I love your, I love your framing, that's great. There's some structure, there's some practicality. So, for anyone listening, I think it's really key that you find a trusted partner that is somebody who can help you re-pattern that way of being. So, Carlos, when I notice, if I'm just in a situation where I'm in a, I don't know, a meeting or something with somebody else, a colleague who I notice is starting to get triggered and coming from that reptilian reaction, we don't have any agreed upon, you know, relationship or agreement or anything like that. Is there anything I can do or say that helps them step out or see beyond when they're in
Speaker 2 14:04
it depends the relationship you have with that person.
Speaker 4 14:09
Yeah, the
Speaker 2 14:11
way that you talk, if you sounds like you're patronizing, you're out of the game.
Speaker 1 14:18
Bingo! Yeah,
Speaker 2 14:20
so it has to be something. First of all, what I'm saying depends on the relationship, because it has to be a trustful relationship. That person needs to trust you. If not, will react even more in the negative way,
Speaker 1 14:35
right? If
Speaker 2 14:36
understand and trust you, and you can say it in a calm way, remember the reptilian rate is contagious. I mean, what activates one will activate the other. So, if you can keep in a calm way, listen. What is the name, Tom? Listen in this moment, the way you're talking to me. I mean, I really don't feel good. Third condition, the. Never talk about them, talk about the impact on you. That's a good one. That's a good
Speaker 1 15:07
one. I'm going to stop you. So I want to just reinforce that don't talk about them, talk about the impact. So you're kind of depersonalizing it. Can you tell me? I mean, I think I understand why, but tell me why.
Speaker 2 15:20
No, you're avoiding the confrontation,
Speaker 1 15:24
right?
Speaker 2 15:24
So, I'm not telling, I'm not saying to that person you did it wrong wrongly. I'm not judging that,
Speaker 1 15:31
right? Right,
Speaker 2 15:32
I'm saying, I'm saying this is the impact on me, is the way I receive
Speaker 1 15:38
it, right? So, when
Speaker 2 15:39
the relationship is good, the other person will say sorry. I mean, that was not my intent, for sure. My intention, but if you start judging, that is the way to never break the pattern,
Speaker 1 15:52
right?
Speaker 2 15:53
Make sense?
Speaker 1 15:54
Yeah, it does. You're saying,
Speaker 2 15:56
yeah, the person will say, yeah, what were you telling me? That may you're right, I'm wrong. So the fight will stay.
Speaker 1 16:03
Yeah, yeah, positional, yeah, yeah. Well, and I love what you said about, because I was going to bring that up as well, about the reptilian brain being contagious. I thought that was a great way to say it. I also observed that, that's my experience. I have come up with my own term, I call it a trigger jamboree. When one person is triggered, it's very difficult for the other person not to be. I'm curious, though. So, Carlos, in terms of like from a brain perspective, like what's going on there? Like, I was kind of racking my brain, is it is it like mirror neurons or something, like I'm triggering, and then the other person somehow finds, like, what's happening. Why is the other person triggering more likely when I'm in my reptilian brain?
Speaker 2 16:51
First of all, again, this is survival reaction, and, like, you mentioned at the beginning, we only, we mainly know we mainly trust the reptilian brain, because we know that was the reason to the civilization is still alive. It's about survival. Therefore, in my brain, when somebody's, when somebody's reptilian brain is talking to me, my reptilian brain will reveal, and that will deactivate my rational brain. When the reptilian brain is activated, the rational brain needs to be deactivated, because it's too slow,
Speaker 1 17:41
right?
Speaker 2 17:42
Right. So mirror, mirror neurons, they work deeper. The mirror neuron system is about, and this is about empathy. Ah, okay. System is, and I will tell you, I'm sure you know the mirror nervous system creates a situation that whatever you do as an action for my brain is me doing the same
Speaker 1 18:14
action, right?
Speaker 2 18:15
That is the empathetic thing, so I can understand what happened to you, because in my brain is me doing right,
Speaker 1 18:22
right, that's when my husband and I are sitting on the couch watching a movie, and I look over and we're sitting exactly the same way,
Speaker 2 18:30
exactly right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 18:33
Okay, so more empathetic in nature, the mirror neurons, yeah,
Speaker 2 18:36
absolutely, mirror neurons is is what I would say one of the key components of empathy,
Speaker 1 18:43
right? Right. I also appreciate your distinction that when the reptilian brain is active, the rational part of us cannot be, yeah, and they're operating at very different speeds, clearly, because, as you describe, reptilian is survival, so we kind of want that one to go really fast. Often think, yeah,
Speaker 2 19:06
I want to share two things. If you first of all, 100% of the information that comes to us through our senses, right, will impact first the reptilian brain. Oh, so we'll impact the three whole brain, the whole brain, but there is a slight time difference versus reptilian, there is a delay emotional, there is a relay irrational part that they, I mean, the explanation is simple, it's about survival, so if it's something that really put me under threat, I need to react the other thing, right?
Speaker 1 19:47
Yeah,
Speaker 2 19:48
and that also is a reason of the famous saying worldwide: count until 10 before you react,
Speaker 1 19:57
right?
Speaker 2 19:58
Because counting until 10, you. Just let the information reach your ration brain,
Speaker 1 20:05
right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 20:08
When you ask people, I work a lot in workshop on this, and always, and we talk about the TWA, and always I do a round, I say, tell me, what is your technique when you are really mad or you are spread, you are not. You're not 100% of the techniques is about buying time.
Speaker 1 20:31
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 20:32
I talk with a friend, I go for a walk, I go for a coffee, I everything is about buying time and down, and the most, the funny part is when we see somebody with a retina vein activated, what we say calm down,
Speaker 1 20:52
that doesn't work so well.
Speaker 5 20:56
No,
Speaker 1 20:56
yeah, so if you're listening and someone's upset, don't say calm down, let's
Speaker 2 21:04
talk later, go for a walk, and reconnect later.
Speaker 1 21:10
Yeah, we have a, we have a thing, I don't know if, if it's in your experience as well, Carlos, but for kids, we always say when they're upset, take a time out, and so I use that with adults, and I say, take a time out, you know, go outside, there's.. I always say, there's never a situation where you can't say I have to go and use the bathroom, although I have since worked with ER docs, and that is actually not the case, so. so it's about finding that moment when you can actually just step back and disconnect for a moment, let your brains sort of balance and your rational catch up, so yeah, yeah, okay, let's talk about the heart brain for a moment. I really appreciate how you pull on language to point to the possibility that the heart is not just a pump. I think that's really cool, so that it potentially plays a role in memories, and perhaps more so. In English, you point out that we say that we know something, quote unquote, by heart. This propelled me to do a little bit of light googling, and I came across a journal article. It was from the National Library of Medicine, 2019 It explored the role of the heart as a key moderator of pain, and that pain perception is modulated by neural pathways and methods targeting the heart. So, I'll just had a little giggle, because I thought, well, it looks like all those love songs about broken hearts have actually gotten it right, but I'm digressing for a second. Firstly, isn't the number of neurons in the heart like barely a fraction of what exists in the brain? Like, I think 40,000 to something like 100 billion. So, I've got, I've got kind of two questions for you. First of all, help me understand how the heart gets to be included in the category of brains. Firstly, obviously there's neurons there, but like what qualifies something in your book to be called a brain? And then secondly, can you explain the role of neurons in the heart and how understanding this aspect of our biology might offer interesting insights, particularly in terms of emotional intelligence and decision making. So, like, how a leader can lead from the heart. So, there was a lot there. So, first of all, How does the heart get labeled a brain? And secondly, How does a leader lead from the heart? Help us understand that.
Speaker 2 23:39
Okay, there are many things to analyze. First of all, I mean, when, when somebody's soft in New York, why you call the near so, so few neurons in the heart and brain? Well, first I was not the one, I mean, the guy who discovered, called the I was a French guy, called the Petit Doreen, the petite celebrity in French. I don't remember now how it is, but the point is, what is the definition of brain? That's my always is my response. What is the definition of brain? The brain is neuros and is a system of support called glia is here, and so that's supporting network and neurons, those are in the heart, even though it's 40,000
Speaker 1 24:33
yeah. So, and
Speaker 2 24:34
then always I say, why, why is not a brain, so we call brain this one that is super powerful, of course, but as if we define brain, brain is just that is certain type of cells and supported by a specific system of cells, those two things. Things you have it here, up here you have it in the heart, and you have it in the gut,
Speaker 1 25:04
in the gut as well,
Speaker 2 25:06
in the gut as well. The point is, and it's true, everything's interconnected, so it's intertwined. I mean, today we cannot differentiate one from the other. Second question that you brought up is about what means to live from the heart. I have two types of answers, one from my heart. I
Speaker 1 25:30
want to hear the heart one first,
Speaker 2 25:32
and the other one from my head, because there are two types of audience of people listening,
Speaker 1 25:42
yeah.
Speaker 2 25:43
When you tell all certain type of executive or executive people in work, at work doesn't matter if it's executive or not, and you say to lead by the heart sounds too touchy feel,
Speaker 6 25:55
yep.
Speaker 2 25:57
And then they will react. So today, or not today, no. For many years, we talk about servant leadership.
Speaker 7 26:05
Yeah,
Speaker 2 26:06
servant leadership is to lead from the heart, and that, in a practical way, is is a compassionate leadership. So, is living through understanding others first, considering their situation and leveraging their characteristics to become more productive. So, it's about the others, it's about others, it's not about me. This is a servant leadership, you know, and this is what I connected with, leading from the heart,
Speaker 1 26:41
right.
Speaker 2 26:42
That's why I say, I mean, depends who is listening will be the speech. The truth is that the another thing I don't remember, I don't think I said it. No, I didn't see it. Said it in the TED talk. There is a concrete study style research that shows that people that go to any kind of heart intervention or heart attack or heart disease, whatever, whatever, whatever, put the name after the episode, the incidence of psychological issues is higher, so there is a connection between our psychological state and the heart, that is a fact, and that is a fact, that's means a lot of discussion.
Speaker 1 27:34
Yeah,
Speaker 2 27:35
still there is a lot of, a lot of, I mean, way to go to understand exactly what that means, I like to. This is because I'm talking to you, but I always like to bring the whole all old all story of medicine. I mean, at the beginning of medicine, those, those father of medicine is called it away, they thought that the essence of the human being was in the heart, knowing the brain, and of course, I mean, you say, yeah, because, okay, they didn't know, they didn't have the information, but now we are doing a circle, maybe, maybe I don't want to be running the conversation, but maybe they were not so wrong.
Speaker 1 28:25
Yeah, maybe they got it right,
Speaker 2 28:28
maybe they got it right. If you don't mind, can I tell you another anecdote?
Speaker 1 28:34
It's okay with me, Carlos.
Speaker 2 28:36
I don't know if you know Davidson, Davidson is a researcher, as an amazing medical doctor from Wisconsin, by the way, or used to be in Wisconsin, I don't know, and he was the one who studied all the months that were working with the Dalai Lama to see how the brain works regarding meditation and all this, if you know this, the anecdote. No, I don't know if I don't. So the Dalai Lama, that was a few years ago, the Dalai Lama brought all the monks that work that are living with him, whatever to say. Okay, but the purpose, the Dalai Lama is a fanatic of neuroscience, the current Dalai Lama. current, and he brought them to Richard Davidson. They said, "Listen, study them. So, okay. And Davidson said, "Well, we need to explain to them what we're going to do. Then Davidson said, "Because we want to know what was the impact of so many years of meditation, I'm going to study your brain, so we'll go through MRI, blah blah, and all the monks started laughing and giggling, and sorry, the monks did
Speaker 1 29:52
what, Carlos
Speaker 2 29:54
started laughing or giggling laughing and saying what you're talking about, so. So they listen, then says, "Okay, maybe I said something wrong. And then he asked the Dalai Lama, "What was wrong? What I said, and the Dalai Lama said, "No, you said that to know what happened with them, you're going to study the brain, and they say, "No, you need to study their heart. heart, that's what they were expecting, not to study the brain.
Speaker 1 30:27
Yeah.
Speaker 2 30:27
Okay. This is an anecdote, but I love it, by the way.
Speaker 1 30:31
Yeah,
Speaker 2 30:31
going back to your question, what is what means leading from the heart is, is organizing the system different,
Speaker 1 30:42
yeah,
Speaker 2 30:43
is prioritizing different things. In meanwhile, you are leading, so if you lead normally, we lead through objectives, goals, purpose, that is completely correct. Yeah, but how you do it, that makes the whole difference. Are you giving, are you giving orders of the time, or you are asking them to propose? Are you involved in them? Are you engaging them? Because that is a completely different process,
Speaker 1 31:19
right,
Speaker 2 31:20
that takes you different results regarding productivity, regarding efficiency, and all this stuff. What I'm going to say is there are a lot of research as well showing that, and let's keep using the same sentence, living from the heart is a lot more powerful than living from the rational brain.
Speaker 1 31:47
Yeah,
Speaker 2 31:48
I would say effective. I will not use the word powerful, except
Speaker 1 31:52
effective. I would agree with that. Hey, you're listening to the Squeeze, and if you like what you're hearing, there's a whole world of citrus couching to discover. We've got an online leadership program, it's called Citrus You, and it features those three key tools you need to be a better leader, well, to be a better human. We also have a number of mini learning bundles that you can get into, and there's plenty more. If you're interested, you can follow us on Instagram, or check out our website@www.citruscoaching.com And the show resumes now. And I would also think powerful too, a different type of power, though it's really interesting, because what you're saying is triggering so many other areas that I'm currently researching and looking into, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of follow the bouncing ball of energy here, because one of the pieces that I'm really looking deeply into right now is overwhelm, so I'm actually doing a bunch of research into the large organizational patterns that exacerbate leadership overwhelm right now. So, specifically, what I'm doing, Carlos, is I'm looking at the implicit culture, and so, obviously, you know, the explicit culture, and most of the organizations that I work with are talking about, you know, employee well-being, they offer mindfulness, lots of workshops, lots of coaching, so the explicit culture is saying that, but the implicit culture, the one that nobody talks about, but everybody knows, is that the expectation is that you know the leaders that really drive themselves relentlessly will be successful, and I see it all over the place, obviously. You know, well, let me just give context. So, I work a lot in healthcare, I work in local government, both of which are tremendously susceptible to change. So, yeah, so I continually have clients that show up on my doorstep, and they are exhausted, they're ready to quit or go on a leave, and so it's kind of ugly inside these organizations, and I know that a lot of the, you know, I know a lot of the usual kind of tools and strategies and things like that for supporting leaders, but what you're talking about is exactly what I've observed, which is that it seems that when the pressure mounts, and I think the pressure is systemic, frankly, when the pressure mounts, leaders tend to go into more directive, as you were describing in your examples, and yet, and what I find is that the resistance is to slowing down, even though slowing down, it seems to be the only thing that would make a difference. So, you've made a lovely distinction in some of your podcast episodes that I listen to around stress and de-stress, or distress, I should say, that stress is just a thing, it's. Like you know, it can be a very positive thing, but that the narrative that we hold about our stress can actually make us in distress and create a lot of harmful, harmful effects. So, so let's talk about, like, so for leaders in those situations, in those churning kind of organizational dynamics, they're they're trying really hard to regain their mental health. First of all, when a leader is in overwhelm, so I'm getting you to go back a little bit to the brain science a bit. So, what's going on in our brains in overwhelm? And then what can we do about that? I know those are giant questions, but let's just see where they go. What's going on in our brain, Carlos? When we're overwhelmed, I think we're going back to the reptilian brain, that's my hunch,
Speaker 2 35:45
definitely. Yes, and we activate something that is the sympathetic system,
Speaker 1 35:51
yeah,
Speaker 2 35:53
and that is just to be on guard, on duty, and I mean, you need to be prepared for that. When I have one workshop that is from overwhelm to flourish, and my first question in the workshop is, How do we define being overwhelmed? What is the definition, and after many, many, many workshops, the best definition I found is the feeling of being out of control.
Speaker 1 36:25
It's good,
Speaker 2 36:27
because that this is the definition, and then we have all the physiological and psychological impacts that
Speaker 8 36:36
the list is
Speaker 2 36:37
endless about how people react physically or mentally through the state of being overwhelmed, but in the end everything is around having this perception of lack of control,
Speaker 1 36:54
right?
Speaker 2 36:55
Make sense what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1 36:56
me, yeah, lack of control is a good description.
Speaker 2 36:59
Then if we then all the impact in our body is about the hyper hyper activation of the stress normal physiological response, so I mean you're totally right, I mean, stress is normal. Stress is completely normal. It's a normal physiological system, right, that allows us to get up in the morning, blah blah blah, walk, and to close the street. When, when that system is over activated, that is called distress. Then we have a problem that we can end, you know, in a burnout syndrome. So to feel overwhelmed creates a situation where I start not only feeling out of control, I, I go numb, I cannot react, I cannot respond. So in that moment I'm really in danger in many sense psychologically, of physics depends on the situation. How to.. what is the antidote mean? How to neutralize this stuff. First of all, understanding the system is telling me the body and my mind. What I try to transmit is how to get back to the feeling of conflict, and there are some concrete tips. Sorry, I don't want to derail to go south, because your question was about what happened when we are overwhelmed, and I'm moving to what to do. No, no,
Speaker 1 38:38
it's a natural progression. I'm following you, and I think it's useful. Keep going.
Speaker 2 38:43
Okay, I'm in. What I present is to understand very simple concepts. Number one, let's stop talking about time management. That is absolutely the wrong target, and when we are aiming the wrong target, there's no solution.
Speaker 1 39:08
Yeah,
Speaker 2 39:09
nobody, absolutely nobody on earth can manage time. That is absolutely an oxymoron time manner. What the body does naturally, and it's called technically allostasis, is managing energy. That's what we do,
Speaker 9 39:29
right?
Speaker 2 39:31
And that's what we do unconsciously. We say, I feel good, I will do more.
Speaker 10 39:37
I
Speaker 2 39:37
feel tired, I stop doing a rest. This is energy management. Is that
Speaker 1 39:43
like, is that like body budgeting from the brains?
Speaker 2 39:46
Exactly. Listen, so let's aim the right target. The right target is energy energy management. Then let's look. For whatever technique will tell me to manage my energy, or to gain more energy, or to avoid draining energy, but this is the time, and in that moment it will become more effective, and I have, I mean, a list of seven different steps, I will not time to go through all of them. I'll put your
Speaker 1 40:25
contact info. People can reach out to you after the show,
Speaker 2 40:28
right? Absolutely, we can do another podcast if you want. Sure, yeah. So the one that I want to highlight first is anxiety, because anxiety is like a lane, is sort of normal in our society, everybody feels anxious in one way or the other.
Speaker 1 40:52
Yeah,
Speaker 2 40:52
and anxiety has a very, very polyphsetic, let's say, a different way of manifest itself be present in our life, and this is a concept that not too many people know, and I like to share. Anxiety has one characteristic: anxiety cannot live in our head or our body when we are focusing on the present time, anxiety only can be present when I think in a negative way about the past or in a negative way about the future,
Speaker 1 41:33
right.
Speaker 2 41:34
And, of course, you know that, but it's important to recall this, because there are so many techniques today that we can use to keep ourselves in the here and now.
Speaker 1 41:44
Yeah,
Speaker 2 41:45
that is the way to close the door for anxiety. This is not magic. This is how the brain.. no,
Speaker 1 41:52
yeah, it's Carlos. It's almost like I feel like people are always just searching for the magic bullet, and it's kind of like even just something like deep breathing and counting to 10, like these things are tried and true, they're ancient, they work, but it's like our culture is just pushing for the shiny thing, you know, that's gonna somehow take us, you know, like anxiety is, you know, incredibly high levels in our culture today, it's become ubiquitous, and there's just a way that, yeah, I completely align with what you're saying. It can't exist in the present moment, fully aligned with that. Back to what you were just saying about energy management versus time management, love it. It's a great reframe. What if I do my little sort of self-assessment around my energy, and I realize I've got none at any point? Do I quit? What, like, what do I do? I mean, I love the idea of identifying. I call it like your biological power hour, you know, like, and you've pointed out those two hours after lunch are deadly, and you and I, as facilitators, I know that's the hardest time of our, we really work for our money at that time, but, like, you know, in all sincerity, when I'm dealing with a really burned-out leader, and I say, you know, let's reframe and look at energy management, and they just go, like, I got none. I mean, like, you know, what do we do with that?
Speaker 2 43:28
First of all, that is saying there is no realist, so that is not true. The moment you have none energy, you're not alive anymore. Okay, so maybe they
Speaker 1 43:42
were a bit dramatic, but keep going, exactly,
Speaker 2 43:44
exactly. So then, when you, when I ask people, is when is the moment during the day that you fit with more energy? It's in the morning, it's in the evening, because all of us, we have a different time, no, this one, I mean, there is a peak of partnership for all of us that is divided, some of them in the morning, some of them in the afternoon or evening. We need to understand the pattern of our circadian rhythm. Why to leverage that part? That's step number one, and for instance, personally I am an evening guy, so in the evening I boom, and then I do things faster, less mistakes, I mean, in the morning I can't do it because my life was in the morning like everyone else, I mean schools and everything, but I know that if I need to do something really demanding? I do it in the
Speaker 1 44:43
right
Speaker 2 44:45
number one. Another thing that we need to know during the day, we have two different cycles, normal cycle that normally we break because we don't know they exist, we don't follow. Yeah, one is the one I told you, and you already know, because you say okay. After lunch, try not to be stolen and with you after lunch, okay? We cannot take a nap the night before, but at least do something lighter, let's say. But the other one is the ultrarian, that
Speaker 1 45:20
people
Speaker 2 45:20
don't know about this, and the body, the brain say every I would say between 90 and 120 minutes, the brain will shut off the system for 15 minutes, we like it on, we want it or not,
Speaker 1 45:40
right, and
Speaker 2 45:40
if we don't allow the brain to do that, the brain is to do two words, because in that moment we'll be doing nothing, those 15 minutes, the brain is working like crazy in something that is essential, is organizing the fires,
Speaker 1 45:57
right? It's a good metaphor,
Speaker 11 46:01
exactly,
Speaker 1 46:02
yeah, but
Speaker 2 46:02
brain needs to organize what was happening during the active time,
Speaker 1 46:08
right?
Speaker 2 46:08
And that's what the brain does. We don't let them let the brain to do it. We, we are over using the system, let's say, and the engine cannot last for too long,
Speaker 1 46:22
right?
Speaker 2 46:23
That creates that feeling of being all the time,
Speaker 1 46:29
that makes a lot of sense. So,
Speaker 2 46:33
and then my recommendation, just to fill in the idea, is I give a very concrete technique, I mean, put in your, in your cell phone, I mean, 100 minutes, 100 minutes will be an alarm, or
Speaker 1 46:47
on your, I'm holding up my smart watch, because that beeps me every 50 minutes. Okay,
Speaker 2 46:55
okay, let's be beat you, I mean, that will be every, I don't know, 80 minutes, 100 minutes,
Speaker 1 47:02
yeah.
Speaker 2 47:02
In that moment, stop whatever you're doing and change activity for 15 minutes. Do something lighter when you start following in a conscious way that pattern the brain starts gaining energy more and more and more, and you will see that in just in one or two weeks, it's very concrete, the impact that has in our level of energy. So, just we have what I'm saying is just following what normally happens that we don't respect, right?
Speaker 1 47:40
Right, right, which most people probably don't even know, so I want to just check that out. So, because that's a super crucial little what they call what the kids call life hacks today. So, every 90 to 120 minutes, set your phone or set your watch to beep you, and they get up and do something for 15 minutes that's lighter. Here's my question, because you know what people are going to do in those 15 minutes, they're going to go and they're going to pick this thing up. I'm holding my phone up, so scrolling on social media, does that constitute something lighter?
Speaker 2 48:16
If it's not something traumatic or aggressive, yes. What I mean, so some people go to TikTok, I mean, just to see to watch Ticker things or whatever, because it doesn't videos or whatever, it doesn't require much energy, whatever will distract you, or just go for a walk, or go for a coffee, or organize your desk, organize your computer, whatever, will not demand too much energy.
Speaker 1 48:45
Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. I am going to make that. I'm going to set that intention for myself, Carlos, because I sit at a desk. I know lots of people listening sit at desks, and it is so easy to get caught up in the work, so I'm committed. You can hold me accountable to that. Okay, I'm gonna change gears a little bit here, because I think anybody who's watched your TED talk, and I think probably people listening will go and check that out, and I think you should. You talk about bully bosses, and so I think that's kind of like, I don't know if you know this, Carlos, but it's kind of become your thing out there in social media land,
Speaker 1 49:24
so it's obviously a core piece of your focus and expertise. So, listen, listeners who are new to your work, though they don't know about it, and yet may have undoubtedly suffered under a bully boss. I found it, for me personally, I found it extremely helpful to hear that you say you're saying that you enjoy working with bully bosses, because you know these are clients that you can take any kind of feedback that you want to dish out, that that high level of directness and challenge is actually something that they, they respect. I found this with. Some of the very, very senior clients that I work with, that it's always kind of, I'm a bit shocked, actually, at what I get away with, and for them it's just like, hey, this is just the norm. Clearly, this type of personality is not the majority in organizational life, thank God. And these type of bosses can be, as you've said in another podcast I listen to, extremely hard on their direct reports. They obviously, they're getting the results, so the company loves them, the organization loves them. But for anyone that's listening, and I've heard I've worked with a lot of people who have had these bosses, so if you know anybody is listening and has had or has a current situation with a bully boss. Sometimes I think it can be useful for us to understand a little bit about what's going on for them, and I know we're it's a little bit of duplication of what we talked about at the beginning, but I guess what I would ask you, Carlos, is if you were talking to somebody who is working for a bully boss, we're not talking to the bully boss, what could you tell them that would help them feel maybe a little less victimized, maybe a bit more empowered, and maybe even something that they could do differently to feel a little bit better.
Speaker 2 51:16
Wow. Again, okay. In the next two hours, I will explain.
Speaker 1 51:22
You have exactly 10 minutes. I know I like the big questions, because it means you exactly
Speaker 2 51:30
will not. So, the point is, let's differentiate how that person is being impacted by that board bully boss, because what I mean is sometimes when you see that the person is not able to manage the situation, the best is to leave the position organization. I mean, I, we need to understand when the impact of a bully boss is too much, let's say,
Speaker 1 52:01
yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 2 52:01
not to, to, to expect that people will be able really to control that situation. It's nice for those that you see that they really are eager to learn what to do. The first recommendation I give is counter intuitive because what the bully boss respects is when they are pushed back, when somebody will be determined and firm in their position, that's what the bully boss will really respect, bully bosses, male or female, doesn't matter, no gender related. Okay, and they, but they normally, they are a female and the alpha females or alpha males in general, and those kind of mindset, they only, they mainly respect alpha male or alpha female, so that's what somebody that will they feel they're at the same level, right? But we are talking about employees, so this is the both. There's a hierarchy there, exactly. This is different. I'm not saying that you will play at the same level, but you can, my always I work in a coaching setting. I work in what is called self respect. So I'm not saying you will fight this person because it's quite aggressive, but what people really understand, and they want to do is to keep a self to respect themselves. Then the way to respect yourself is building the right limits or boundaries. This is about boundaries, and we work a lot on how to do it and when to do it, because of course at the beginning the bully balls will become even more aggressive. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1 54:05
new. Yeah,
Speaker 2 54:06
but I tell you, because this is works mathematically. The second time, a third time that the person say this is the limit, and say here, I'm no, I mean, I don't let you cross this line. Bully balls are very respectful of that, believe it or not, this is not to create people that will behave in bold, no, right? This is to create, to help people, support people, to respect themselves. One of the first steps, let's say, because also there are steps on this is at the moment you feel the aggression of the situation is becoming complicated because of the style of your boss in a very nice way, say okay, I, this is again, talk about you, this is not impacting one on me. Let's talk another in another moment. Now we cannot, and it's people say I cannot do that. Yes, you
Speaker 1 55:07
can. Yeah,
Speaker 2 55:08
yes, you can. And so this is not about telling you are being aggressive, because those people will not listen. That it's about telling I don't feel okay in this situation, and this is a bit, so I'm living, and I will, I will, we will meet again, and tomorrow, next week, whatever. So, what I mean is, it's about self, that is something that people really understand. It's an about, it's not about the booty books, it's about you, right? Will you respect yourself? And then I try to build upon that, so not to bring the bully boys to say, "Okay, what did you do to respect yourself? And there are many, many, many ways to approach this based on personality,
Speaker 8 55:52
right? Right.
Speaker 2 55:54
So it's not about that you will attack back, you know, and then become also aggressive, because most people cannot do it, and it's correct
Speaker 12 56:04
as well,
Speaker 2 56:06
and it could be danger as well, but this is, say, listen, this is the limit. I mean, I don't feel okay in this conversation. Let's talk.
Speaker 1 56:14
Yeah, so let me, let me grab that. So, what I hear you saying is there's like a, there's like a perspective shift here, away from focusing on the bully boss and their behavior, and focusing on the impact on me, and having that drive my, my self-respect. So, how am I going to have my own back here? So, I love this idea, this of setting a boundary, because I think when people hear boundary and bully boss, they think hell no, that's like no, I'm not kidding, that's career limiting, but what I hear you saying is, and I think this is this is something I've seen many times in experience, so I trust it, so that when I stay on my side of the net, and I'm talking about now is not the right time for me. I'm making it about me. I'm not gonna, and I think for people listening, like I recognize that this is sketchy, right? Like, I don't want to set people up to go out there and do something that's going to traumatize them, but by the same token, by having our own back in that situation, having that, excuse me, that boundary, I don't feel okay in this moment. You're probably not going to get your bully boss jumping up and down for joy. They are probably going to challenge, but what I hear you saying that I think is definitely something for people to look into is that it's the repetition, it's that there's the respect comes when you continue to hold the line, and I think the problem that also happens, which I think you said, Carlos, is that if the first time I set the boundary, then I get the challenge and I let it go, that almost reinforces the bully behavior, is that accurate.
Speaker 13 58:02
Yep,
Speaker 4 58:03
yeah,
Speaker 2 58:03
but you said you said something also anymore. Many important things you said today, but you said I will not do something like this, but can be career limited, so yeah,
Speaker 1 58:18
yeah,
Speaker 2 58:19
if you don't do it, you're doing
Speaker 1 58:24
career limiting. Okay, okay. This is one of those moments. Pump the brakes. Let's just.. let's grab that. That's so important, Carlos, because it's so common in organizational parlance to say, "Oh, can't do that, it's career limiting. So I am now going to lift that from you, and I am going to say, well, actually, not doing it is career limiting. It's such an obvious next little jump. Thank you. That's, I'm putting that in my bag. That is awesome. Listen, as much as I would love this conversation to continue, I know that time is of the essence, and it has been, you know, a valuable, valuable conversation so far, but I also want to be respectful, because I know if I manage time well, the likelihood that when I ping you again for another part two, because I have all these other great questions I didn't get to, that you're more likely to say yes, so I want to set the container, so um, Carlos, just like last words for you, anything that I haven't talked about or said, I obviously I don't want you to get into a whole new diatribe, but you know, just any other sort of last comments before we sign off.
Speaker 2 59:35
I love your questions, that's what I want to say already in front of everyone. I say I already accept to come again and to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 59:43
Woo hoo! Okay, I heard it here. I
Speaker 2 59:46
will love to.
Speaker 1 59:50
Yeah, that would be great. Okay, so Carlos, thanks so much for anybody listening. All of the information that you know you can reach out to Carlos through his web. Side, I'll put everything on the show notes. Definitely check out his TEDx talk, and there's lots of other podcasts that he has been interviewed on that's that helped me a lot with my research for this one. So, Carlos, I was like a super big pleasure. I feel like we're both kind of leading from the heart in this conversation. It feels really at home. I hope it felt it
Speaker 2 1:00:22
too. Absolutely,
Speaker 1 1:00:24
yeah. Thanks
Speaker 2 1:00:24
for that. Really, I felt great.
Speaker 1 1:00:27
Good. We
Speaker 2 1:00:28
did manage the energy very well. Yeah, I
Speaker 1 1:00:31
agree. I agree. And so Carlos is in Madrid, so I'm gonna say to him, go have a sangria for me.
Speaker 2 1:00:38
I promise, promise you. promise,
Speaker 1 1:00:43
that's so great. So you've been listening to The Squeeze. Thanks for joining us today. If you want to continue tuning in, don't forget to click subscribe, and as always, we want to hear your thoughts, your comments, your feedback, and challenges. If there's anything you don't agree with. Thanks for joining us, and see you next time.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:05
Bye.